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How to avoid the quick BOTS draws in Team battles?

As we saw in https://adjva4.dpdns.org/tournament/S6o2YKmp , BOTS found a way to draw very quickly. What's the best way to avoid this? Please share your suggestions like other variants or whatsoever so we can find the best solution!

As we saw in https://adjva4.dpdns.org/tournament/S6o2YKmp , BOTS found a way to draw very quickly. What's the best way to avoid this? Please share your suggestions like other variants or whatsoever so we can find the best solution!

The way bots do this are by making books which store the opening moves . This are normal but now we have developed a dirty way to end the game in an opening only . Variants like KOTH crazyhouse antichess 3 check are favourable for white from first move(we proved it in a 3 hr test tmts by @darkoncrack ) meanwhile in horde it is a win for black . Also as the starting positions are same here a good book can easily beat black always almost in variants other than rk and horde while in horde a good book almost always Beats white and we need special fairy stockfish which are not in all bots such as bots of chessclassic555 . In chess960 it's impossible to create such a book even if one does no effect as all bots need to have it and 95% of chess960 positions are equal from start and it does not need special stockfish normal stockfish that plays rapid classical bullet and blitz play chess960 . Racing kings is also a easy draw . Also humans can make a draw book and make draws EVEN FASTER in rk so it is even worse . Note - chess960 is not a variant here

The way bots do this are by making books which store the opening moves . This are normal but now we have developed a dirty way to end the game in an opening only . Variants like KOTH crazyhouse antichess 3 check are favourable for white from first move(we proved it in a 3 hr test tmts by @darkoncrack ) meanwhile in horde it is a win for black . Also as the starting positions are same here a good book can easily beat black always almost in variants other than rk and horde while in horde a good book almost always Beats white and we need special fairy stockfish which are not in all bots such as bots of chessclassic555 . In chess960 it's impossible to create such a book even if one does no effect as all bots need to have it and 95% of chess960 positions are equal from start and it does not need special stockfish normal stockfish that plays rapid classical bullet and blitz play chess960 . Racing kings is also a easy draw . Also humans can make a draw book and make draws EVEN FASTER in rk so it is even worse . Note - chess960 is not a variant here

So my vote - chess960

So my vote - chess960

The line nowdays most stockfish dev bots plays except few is probably the best and fastest draw line by e4 with no blunder occured after 6 nf6 in berlin defense ,Ruy Lopez. It makes draw in 44 moves and all moves are played by books so each draw is barely 10 seconds. On other hand d4 is more worse as if players think switching to d4 can help,then they must know it has draw for 34 moves and i even played it few days back which makes draw in 6.2 seconds. One changing book will not help as all need to change otherwise no use. And counting this draw line as 0 wont help as there are many similar ways to get draws by 45 moves. Ans countin draws as 0 for bots will spoil as even if all players do not use such lines then even after playing slow and long 100+ moves game result is draw always and counting 0 will be really disappointing for them and others bot makers who probably do not use such lines.
As Supratsa stated in his previous comment,in variants like crazyhouse and koth it's mostly white wins but for the case of koth sometimes black wins and sometimes draw.But with hardwork and dedication a book can be made forcing white win.
Crazyhouse 12hr test arena :- https://adjva4.dpdns.org/tournament/HDQCs5oP
KOTH arena: https://adjva4.dpdns.org/tournament/3T48Bfcb
In the above two arena we have tested these two crazyhouse and koth and it had some wins as black and some draws as white. Although a book can be made for force white win but the tournament test was pretty good for both colours especially koth.
We even had a 960 test arena ( https://adjva4.dpdns.org/tournament/H2cgYCoM ) and a From Position one ( https://adjva4.dpdns.org/tournament/JcCb2VkR ) and honestly speaking all these 4 were great.But from positon have a disadvantage one finding a quick draw can again bring back spam draws as nowdays making a polyglot bin book is easier.
On other hand comparing with 960,it had very few wins but atleast it had and most draw ,all different draws ,pure engine game with no book involved which is great as both white and black have fair chance and real engine is used instead of 44 moves played by full books.
So if our motif is to change draw lines ,960 is best helping us to get different draws everytime,pure engine games and sometimes even win and lose with both black and white fair chance.For most humans it's also a better choice than variants.
But if our motif is to get wins and lose ,koth is preferably the first chouce giving mostly wins as white,sometimes draw and rarely wins as black and second option crazyhouse (although 95% white wins) but black wins and draws also happens very rare like 960.
Thank you.

The line nowdays most stockfish dev bots plays except few is probably the best and fastest draw line by e4 with no blunder occured after 6 nf6 in berlin defense ,Ruy Lopez. It makes draw in 44 moves and all moves are played by books so each draw is barely 10 seconds. On other hand d4 is more worse as if players think switching to d4 can help,then they must know it has draw for 34 moves and i even played it few days back which makes draw in 6.2 seconds. One changing book will not help as all need to change otherwise no use. And counting this draw line as 0 wont help as there are many similar ways to get draws by 45 moves. Ans countin draws as 0 for bots will spoil as even if all players do not use such lines then even after playing slow and long 100+ moves game result is draw always and counting 0 will be really disappointing for them and others bot makers who probably do not use such lines. As Supratsa stated in his previous comment,in variants like crazyhouse and koth it's mostly white wins but for the case of koth sometimes black wins and sometimes draw.But with hardwork and dedication a book can be made forcing white win. Crazyhouse 12hr test arena :- https://adjva4.dpdns.org/tournament/HDQCs5oP KOTH arena: https://adjva4.dpdns.org/tournament/3T48Bfcb In the above two arena we have tested these two crazyhouse and koth and it had some wins as black and some draws as white. Although a book can be made for force white win but the tournament test was pretty good for both colours especially koth. We even had a 960 test arena ( https://adjva4.dpdns.org/tournament/H2cgYCoM ) and a From Position one ( https://adjva4.dpdns.org/tournament/JcCb2VkR ) and honestly speaking all these 4 were great.But from positon have a disadvantage one finding a quick draw can again bring back spam draws as nowdays making a polyglot bin book is easier. On other hand comparing with 960,it had very few wins but atleast it had and most draw ,all different draws ,pure engine game with no book involved which is great as both white and black have fair chance and real engine is used instead of 44 moves played by full books. So if our motif is to change draw lines ,960 is best helping us to get different draws everytime,pure engine games and sometimes even win and lose with both black and white fair chance.For most humans it's also a better choice than variants. But if our motif is to get wins and lose ,koth is preferably the first chouce giving mostly wins as white,sometimes draw and rarely wins as black and second option crazyhouse (although 95% white wins) but black wins and draws also happens very rare like 960. Thank you.

A draw in Bot vs Bot should not be rewarded, so result in zero points. Another possibility would be some kind of Armageddon, where white must win, otherwise loses, maybe give a little more advantage, e.g. through time control.
Only suggesting this for Bot vs Bot Games.

A draw in Bot vs Bot should not be rewarded, so result in zero points. Another possibility would be some kind of Armageddon, where white must win, otherwise loses, maybe give a little more advantage, e.g. through time control. Only suggesting this for Bot vs Bot Games.

Agreed. Spamming draws just let's a bot easily win a tournament, and it's not fun at all. As SupratSa suggests, chess960 is probably the best way to deal with this. Or custom positions, where White has the same advantage as in the beginning of the game. Probably the latter is better for no variants.

Agreed. Spamming draws just let's a bot easily win a tournament, and it's not fun at all. As SupratSa suggests, chess960 is probably the best way to deal with this. Or custom positions, where White has the same advantage as in the beginning of the game. Probably the latter is better for no variants.

@realPangu said in #5:

A draw in Bot vs Bot should not be rewarded, so result in zero points. Another possibility would be some kind of Armageddon, where white must win, otherwise loses, maybe give a little more advantage, e.g. through time control.
Only suggesting this for Bot vs Bot Games.

I'm not sure through time control. Strong internet connection and good time management bots can make draws easily with 1 minute.

@realPangu said in #5: > A draw in Bot vs Bot should not be rewarded, so result in zero points. Another possibility would be some kind of Armageddon, where white must win, otherwise loses, maybe give a little more advantage, e.g. through time control. > Only suggesting this for Bot vs Bot Games. I'm not sure through time control. Strong internet connection and good time management bots can make draws easily with 1 minute.

In chess960 we dont know starting pos , in from position we know ... but i would say making fp book is difficult as engines in the website such as lichess analysis , next chess move run sf 17.1 at a shallower depth and how will u find a lichess bot to play from the exact from position. @Realboy9000

edit - obviously unless u circumvenate the system and agree to some draws with friend bots but still other bots may defeat as u need a very good stockfish for the pgn which is often rare in free engine sites . Yes , you can run ur own stockfish on a gui like cutechess but thats different problem. Chess960 is best

In chess960 we dont know starting pos , in from position we know ... but i would say making fp book is difficult as engines in the website such as lichess analysis , next chess move run sf 17.1 at a shallower depth and how will u find a lichess bot to play from the exact from position. @Realboy9000 edit - obviously unless u circumvenate the system and agree to some draws with friend bots but still other bots may defeat as u need a very good stockfish for the pgn which is often rare in free engine sites . Yes , you can run ur own stockfish on a gui like cutechess but thats different problem. Chess960 is best

@realPangu said in #5:

A draw in Bot vs Bot should not be rewarded, so result in zero points. Another possibility would be some kind of Armageddon, where white must win, otherwise loses, maybe give a little more advantage, e.g. through time control.
Only suggesting this for Bot vs Bot Games.
Lichess sadly doesnt yet support this variant .

@realPangu said in #5: > A draw in Bot vs Bot should not be rewarded, so result in zero points. Another possibility would be some kind of Armageddon, where white must win, otherwise loses, maybe give a little more advantage, e.g. through time control. > Only suggesting this for Bot vs Bot Games. Lichess sadly doesnt yet support this variant .

Hmm..
1 way is to make the bot creators stop using books for this tournament. But, it's highly unlikely. Bot makers wont do it.
What I want @jeffforever to do, is to make 3+0 or 1/2+0 variant tournaments. I'd suggest KOTH or Crazyhouse. Thanks.

Hmm.. 1 way is to make the bot creators stop using books for this tournament. But, it's highly unlikely. Bot makers wont do it. What I want @jeffforever to do, is to make 3+0 or 1/2+0 variant tournaments. I'd suggest KOTH or Crazyhouse. Thanks.

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